Oh Storms! IT’S ODIUM! Everyone run!
Well. Don’t actually, because goodness gracious do we have a lot to cover this week, given how short this chapter is. Over the course of Dalinar and Odium’s conversation we start getting some major information (finally) about who/what exactly Odium is, and what his broader machinations are. We also get a few little morsels of intel about the Shards to pick over, which is always fun! (Watch out for spoilers in the Cosmere Connections section, though.)
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There’s a considerable amount of discussion about all of the other Cosmere related works in the Cosmere Connections section this week, so tread very carefully. Most of it is broader Shard theory and discussion, but we do spoil a major plot point from the end of the original Mistborn trilogy, and there’s a minor spoiler for Mistborn Era 2 in the Singing Storm section, in relation to the epigraph. As always, if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Vision of Feverstone Keep
WHEN: 1174.1.9.3 (Immediately following Chapter 56)
Odium and Dalinar chat about Shards, Intent, and his nature. (Wow. That’s the easiest recap I’ve ever had to write.)
The Singing Storm
Title: Passion
“Passion, Dalinar Kholin. I am emotion incarnate.”
L: A fitting title for this chapter, given that the entire thing is about Odium and—as he states—Passion is what he is.
AA: I’m not, however, 100% convinced that this is 100% true… Frost, who knows a whole lot more about Adonalsium and the Shards than we do, said this about Odium:
He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.
He may represent more than merely hatred, but hatred is his primary Intent, and whatever he does with other emotions is likely to be tainted by hatred and untouched by virtue, however he convinces himself otherwise.
AP: I agree that hatred is primary (the black flame), but the other strong emotions are a part of it too. When Dalinar gets a glimpse of the “real” Odium the other passions are there too. I see Odium as representing an excess of emotion, the negative side of emotion when you are all feeling and no thought. Anger vs. wrath. Dislike vs. hatred. Love vs. lust. Sorrow vs. grief. There’s a place for strong emotion, for passion, but unchecked it’s extremely dangerous.
Heralds
Vedel (Edgedancers, Loving & Healing, Diamond, Healer); Chana (Dustbringers, Brave & Obedient, Ruby, Guard)
L: Man, I am just… stymied by this one. If we’re going to dig for deeper meaning for Vedel (other than “Lift shows up”) I’d say that this is how Odium sees himself. He thinks he’s doing the best thing for the world and the people in it. But… that’s a bit of a reach. As for Chana? I have no clue.
AA: I think Vedel is there solely because Lift shows up—and because of the effect she has on Odium. This is an Edgedancer with unique powers, and we need to pay attention to her. As for Chana… Yeah, I’m baffled on that too. Maybe because what Odium plans is so diametrically opposed to her role as Guard? Or because Dalinar is going to have to stand as a guard between Odium and everything else? I … really don’t know.
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Kholin Shield for a Dalinar POV
Epigraph
If you would speak to me further, I request open honesty. Return to my lands, approach my servants, and I will see what I can do for your quest.
AA: Well, that’s a bit of a facer for Hoid. Open honesty? Really? Hoid is supposed to go openly to Scadrial and tell Sazed’s people who he is and what he wants? That’ll be the day.
L: Maybe when Rosharan hogs fly. (Actually wait, with the prevalence of highstorms this is actually probably something that happens quite often, I should come up with a different phrase…)
AA: Seriously, though, I’m now going to have to reread Mistborn Era 2 with this in mind, if I’ve got the timeline straight. The current info places Era 2 shortly after the first arc of Stormlight Archive but before the second arc, though that may be subject to change. Still… I want to know!
AP: That’s intriguing! I’ve never tried to put a timeline to Hoid’s Easter egg appearances before.
Stories & Songs
“So do it. Leave us alone. Go away.”
Odium turned to him so sharply that Dalinar jumped. “Is that,” Odium said quietly, “an offer to release me from my bonds, coming from the man holding the remnants of Honor’s name and power?”
AP: This gave me prickles on the back of my neck. Odium is showing a glimpse of his true nature here. It’s just so menacing. There’s also a lot to unpack in the indication that Dalinar could release Odium.
L: Do we know much about the bonds he’s referring to, here? I’m assuming he’s bound to Roshar itself in some way, otherwise the “offer” to release him by telling him to go away wouldn’t make sense in this context…
AA: Well, he’s bound to the Rosharan system in some way. We don’t really know what that is yet, but it involves Honor and Cultivation, and it’s not connected to the Oathpact—or only peripherally, as maybe a sort of template.
AP: Agree with Rosharan system. Braize (Damnation) and Ashyn (Tranquiline Halls) are part of it somehow too.
“I will go if you release me, but only if you do it by Intent.”
L: Interesting to note the capital I on intent, here. This indicates to me that there’s more going on with it, some sort of power or investment in the words themselves.
AA: I’m not sure if this is canon, but in the fandom we’ve been using capital-I Intent to mean the Intent of the Shard. If that’s what he means here, it would imply that Dalinar would be releasing Odium specifically as the closest thing to a Vessel of Honor that exists (I think). Also, it sounds like Odium is being all honorable here, making it look like he’s only going to accept Dalinar’s release if he really means it; I suspect that it’s more like, he can only go if/when Dalinar is able to actually speak as the Vessel. That’s speculation, of course, but I don’t think Odium would voluntarily remain bound just because Dalinar didn’t know what he was talking about!
L: I mean… he could have led Dalinar into the correct words and Intent, if he so chose? I do think he has a little bit of honor. Personally speaking I really don’t think he’s a bad guy, not in the sense that—say—Sadeas was a bad guy. (Unless there’s a bunch of stuff from later in the book that I’m totally blanking out on.)
AA: He may not be The Big Bad, but he seems a pretty nasty sort so far. He’s out there destroying all the other Shards he can, and refusing to pick up any of their power because it might change who he is and he likes himself as is.
L: To be fair, (as he says), Dalinar was a pretty nasty sort himself. I’m still clinging to that theory that Odium’s gonna prove to NOT be the final Big Bad.
AA: I agree with you there. I think Odium, powerful as he may be, is having delusions of greatness. He thinks he can do more than he really can… and he’s going to find out the hard way. (Unfortunately, I’m afraid my favorite Bondsmith will also find out that there’s something much worse than Odium—and he, too, will find out the hard way. I don’t think there is any other way.)
AP: I agree with Lyndsey in that I don’t think Odium is the Big Bad. It’s also useful to remember that the shards individually function much differently than they presumably would together. Passion (even Hatred) checked by Honor, or Honor tinged with Empathy are more balanced. Separately, neither is a net good.
“Separate the emotion from men, and you have creatures like Nale and his Skybreakers. That is what Honor would have given you.”
L: So in D&D terms, lawful vs. chaotic? In a lawful alignment, you hold to the law above all else. Chaotic is more driven by desire and the whims of human fancy.
AA: I’m not really versed in the D&D definitions, but I’ll tell you one thing: Odium is not telling the whole truth here. Honor also gave them the Windrunners and the Bondsmiths that they already know, and we’re going to observe throughout this book a hint of how much the human Connection of a Bondsmith can do. Honor, particularly linked with Cultivation, gave them far more than the emotionless rule-followers Odium is painting here.
AP: I think lawful vs. chaotic is a good starting point. It isn’t all or nothing, but it’s which is primary. The classic example is what does a lawful or chaotic character do with Jean Valjean in Les Miserables? A lawful character sends him to prison for stealing a loaf of bread, and then breaking parole—Javert. A chaotic character has empathy and lies to cover his theft—the priest. Is a lie strictly against Honor? Yep. Is it a net good in this situation? Also yep.
“You said I was wrong about what caused the Radiants to abandon their oaths. What was it really?”
Odium smiled. “Passion, son. Glorious, wondrous passion. Emotion.”
AA: As answers go, that’s fairly unhelpful. What emotion, and in response to what event? Also, it’s worth noting that Odium is very pleased about the Recreance, which should make Dalinar suspicious of everything he says about it.
AP: To be fair, I think we as readers are also going to feel differently about the Recreance once we get the full story. As for which emotion, I’d toss out a few guesses—horror, grief, revulsion, shame?
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AA: From what we know so far, those emotions would be fitting, if overdone. One of my ongoing discomforts at this point is that I continue to find the Recreance an overreaction to what we’re told in the Eila Stele, so I’m assuming that we will learn more. Perhaps we’ll get the Singer version of it in the next book and add to our understanding.
“It—” He cut off, then frowned, spinning. He searched the rocks.
“What?” Dalinar asked.
“Nothing. Just an old man’s mind playing tricks on him.”
L: We know that this was Lift. But being able to conceal herself from Odium himself? That’s quite a trick. I have to wonder if it’s just Cultivation’s influence on her, or if there’s more going on…
AA: You have to wonder. We know there’s more going on with Lift than just your normal Edgedancer powers, and this seems to be another example. It probably is Cultivation’s doing, but I think it’s more of a direct intervention, not just some nebulous influence. She’s capable of playing a very, very long game.
AP: Agreed that it’s probably linked to Cultivation. But I also question how there Odium is in the vision. He’s tuning in from another planet. My guess is that he feels Cultivation’s influence on Lift.
Bruised & Broken
“You’re a monster.”
“Oh, Dalinar. This from you of all people? Tell me you’ve never found yourself in conflict with someone you respect. Tell me you’ve never killed a man because you had to, even if—in a better world—he shouldn’t deserve it?”
L: Ouch. Nothing like being called out as being just like the Biggest Baddest Bad (that we know of) on the planet.
AA: Ouch indeed, but there’s another side to this. Dalinar is calling Odium the same thing that other people call him, obviously, and the first impression we all (including Dalinar) get is, “You’re just as bad as I am.” I think what Odium is doing, though, is trying to set Dalinar up to “realize” that neither of them is really a monster; they just did what they had to do. “It’s all right, it’s not really your fault, you were forced into it by circumstances….” Basically, Odium is grooming Dalinar for the moment of surrendering the pain and becoming Odium’s Champion. Too bad for him, Cultivation’s work allowed Dalinar to grow into the kind of man who won’t accept that excuse—especially for himself—and all that careful grooming will be blown away.
AP: I also really like this portrayal of Odium. He doesn’t have to lie to Dalinar, because Dalinar is pretty far along the path of “greater good”. Calling him out for not only his past behavior as the Blackthorn, but also more recently stealing control from Elhokar is so effective. I can’t tell if Odium actually believes what he says about himself, or if it’s all manipulation. I’m leaning toward a mix of both.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“…nobody gets old without ruining a whole buncha lives.”
L: I mean. She’s not… entirely wrong.
AA: Uh… am I in trouble? I’m old; what lives have I ruined? I’d like to find out sooner than later.
L: Philosophically speaking, I don’t think it’s possible to live without hurting other people, mostly inadvertently. No one’s perfect.
Weighty Words
The Stormfather had grown distant, almost vanished—but Dalinar could sense a faint emotion from him. A whine, like he was straining against something heavy?
No. No, that was a whimper.
AA: I don’t know about you, but I’m really not used to the mighty—and sometimes haughty—Stormfather whimpering in the corner. I love the dissonance this creates, as Dalinar has to face Odium with virtually no support from the guy who’s generally considered the most powerful being on the planet. Odium sits there looking like a kindly old grandpa, and Mr. Awesome hides under the bed. It makes a wonderful reminder of the larger state of affairs—that Odium was powerful enough to kill Tanavast and Splinter his power, that the Stormfather is the largest single amalgamation of that splintered power, and that he’s sufficiently self-aware to be terribly afraid.
“You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god.”
AA: Remnants hiding in the closet…! But seriously, this is a sweet bit of foreshadowing. Dalinar is the first person to become the Stormfather-Bondsmith since Honor was splintered, and no one seems to anticipate that there may be unforeseen effects. Even the Stormfather himself doesn’t seem to register it until the end of the book—that he is different than he was when he bonded with people before. He’s more powerful, more self-aware, more autonomous, than when he was previously bonded.
L: Another question: does this mean that Dalinar is going to be more or less powerful than previous Bondsmiths? If we’re going by the assumption that there were only ever three, and Bonded the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the nebulous Third Sibling… (The Nightwatcher is closely tied to Cultivation (a Shard). The Stormfather, to Honor (another). And that third? The only other Shard we know of is Odium…) Are we then to assume that the Stormfather was close to Honor, so the Bondsmiths of old were more powerful (because they had a living Shard to draw power from)? Or is Dalinar going to be more powerful because the splintered remnants of Honor are now directly tied to the Stormfather instead of being separated?
AA: My best guess is that Dalinar is going to be more powerful because the Stormfather is now more powerful, as he holds more of Honor’s essence than he did when Tanavast was alive. As for the three siblings/three Shards connection, I don’t think it holds through. Opinion only, but since we know that Honor and Cultivation sort of “adopted” Stormfather and Nightwatcher rather than creating them, I don’t think it makes sense to assume that the Sibling was adopted by Odium. It’s possible that he tried, though, which might be one of the reasons that the Sibling is so reticent at this point. Come to think of it, it’s also possible that with Honor splintered, Odium was able to forcibly Connect to the Sibling, but the Sibling retained enough control to completely withdraw in order to protect their people. (Oh, I have so many ideas about the Sibling, and just not enough information!!!)
“I offer you a challenge of champions. With terms to be discussed. Will you accept it?”
Odium stopped, then turned slowly. “Do you speak for all the world, Dalinar Kholin? Will you offer this for all of Roshar?”
L: I think this is the closest we see to Odium asking such a leading question. If Dalinar answered yes, I feel like that would fulfill the requirement of Intent.
AP: Close to it anyway. The line that gets me is this:
“I need not take on such a risk, for I know, Dalinar Kholin, that you will make the right decision. You will free me.”
AP: I kind of think this may be how it turns out. Not necessarily Dalinar alone, but Our Heroes deciding that freeing Odium is ultimately for the greater good.
Cosmere Connections
“What do you know of us three?” Odium asked.
“Honestly, I didn’t even know there were three of you.”
“More, in fact,” Odium said absently. “But only three of relevance to you. Me. Honor. Cultivation.”
AA: Here, Dalinar, let me introduce you to the Cosmere and the Shards! Oh, never mind. No time for all that. Let’s just focus, here…
L: Shall we perhaps do a quick TL;DR of Shard Theory for those followers amongst us who may be just as in the dark as poor Dalinar, here?
AA: Odium is (most likely, anyway) referring to the sixteen Shards of Adonalsium; the sixteen pieces of the most god-like being we know of in the Cosmere. When he was broken apart, sixteen people picked up the pieces, as it were… and we’ll learn more of what that means, and what it looked like, about 20 years down the road when Sanderson rewrites the Dragonsteel series and publishes it. For now, the three that Odium names here are the ones residing in the Rosharan system (Stormlight Archive). We know of a handful of others: Ruin and Preservation, originally held by Ati and Leras, are now combined as Harmony in the hands of Sazed on Scadrial (Mistborn). There used to be Ambition, held by Uli Da until she was destroyed by Odium not long after the Shattering.
L: Which planet was that? One we’ve seen so far?
AA: We don’t know if Ambition actually resided on a planet or not. We know that there was a battle in the Threnodite system, which had some bizarre effects on that world (Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell), but that her final destruction took place elsewhere—but we don’t know where. Autonomy is held by Bavadin, the mysterious figure who takes on the personas of entire pantheons of gods on multiple worlds, but who started out on Taldain (White Sand). Dominion and Devotion, held by Skai and Aona, were on Sel (Elantris) until Odium killed the Vessels, whose Investiture now makes the Cognitive Realm in that system a bit… hazardous. Endowment, held by Edgli on Nalthis, seems to be intact so far (Warbreaker).
And that leaves six more that we pretty much know diddly about.
L: There’s always another secret.
AA: One doesn’t live on a planet—whatever that means—and another mostly just wants to hide and survive. (Given Odium’s general behavior, this seems like a wise plan. Good luck with that, whoever you are.)
L: May the odds be ever in your favor.
“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave [Cultivation] behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could.”
L: Wait a second. A man cannot serve? What man is he talking about here? Obviously people can “serve” two Shards at once (see: Harmony). Is he more referring to… to people swearing oaths to specific Shards? I’m confused.
AA: Frankly, I have no idea what he’s talking about. I can make some guesses, though. I’m good at that. (Doesn’t mean they’re right…) I think he means to make himself the only god worshipped in the Cosmere, starting with whatever is left of Roshar’s people when he gets done with destroying Cultivation and the remaining Splinters of Honor. He means to destroy not only the Vessels, but as much of their Investiture and Intent as he can, and then he’ll move on to try to destroy the rest of the Shards just as thoroughly.
Also? I think he’s deluded; even if he managed to destroy everything of Cultivation and Honor he can get his bony mitts on, their Intent is throughout the Cosmere, and it will never work. Also, Dalinar isn’t going to sit there and watch him do it.
L: So you think he wants to destroy all the other Shards and basically become the One True God of the entire Cosmere?
AA: I think it’s a strong possibility. Just before this comment, Dalinar asked Odium why he couldn’t just leave without killing anyone. In the fine tradition of answering a question with a question, Odium asked Dalinar why he took control of Alethkar from Elhokar, and then answered his own question by claiming, “You took control for the greater good.” I think, in context, it’s highly likely that Odium/Rayse thinks he’d do a better job than Adonalsium did, and better than anyone else can, and so he thinks (or has convinced himself) that it would be better for everyone if all the other Shards were destroyed and only he were left to be, as you say, the One True God of the Cosmere.
L: (A smarter vessel would probably realize that the only way to really do that would be to be the one who holds all the Shards at once, thereby healing what was broken. Gee… that sounds a bit familiar…)
AA: When you put it that way… it could explain Hoid’s behavior. One could surmise that the two of them are taking competing paths to become the OTG—one by destroying all the competition, and one by reuniting what was shattered. (And now I’m irresistibly reminded of kintsugi, the Japanese art of mending broken pottery with gold to give it a whole new beauty. I wonder if this concept is in Sanderson’s head at all…)
AP: I think Alice is spot on with the two different paths here. There was some reason that the original group who caused the Shattering thought it was necessary—we don’t know why that is. And we also know that the holder of a Shard is strongly influenced by its Intent. So Odium/Rayse could have originally started out thinking that he could create a better world, and fallen into Zealotry in becoming convinced that his way was the only right one, and the others had to be destroyed for it to work. He is also self aware enough to know that taking up another shard would change him further, and he doesn’t want that—it could be a distraction to achieving his goals (whatever they may be). I’m also completely in favor of recombining the shards to form the Almightier, who in contrast to Alice’s lovely pottery theory, is basically Cosmere Voltron in my head.
L: There’s something else to consider here… if Honor truly is dead/destroyed, can a reforming ever actually happen? If a piece is missing… maybe Alice’s kintsugi theory is more relevant than we thought. They’re going to need to find something to replace Honor, if they’re ever going to hope to reform Voltron the Dark Crystal Adonalsium….
AA: There are a couple of things that give me hope for a reforging: Sanderson has recently been talking about how all of the Intents are integral to the Cosmere, and also Hoid has been going around collecting powerful bits of Investiture. (Come to think of it, so have the Ghostbloods, but they strike me as singularly inadequate to the task!)
“Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.”
L: Well, that’s a terrifying thought. Think of all the changes that Sazed made to Scadrial when he assumed the Shards of Ruin and Preservation! And Sazed was a good man, making positive changes. What would Odium do to Roshar?
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AA: It really is a terrifying thought, if he had free rein to do as he wants. I’m trying to figure out if by “realm” he means Roshar and/or its system, or if he means the Physical Realm in general. The former would be bad enough; the latter would be… far, far worse.
AP: Remember that the magic systems derive from Investiture. So I think the spren in particular would be a target.
AA: ::sniffle::
“They call me Odium,” the old man said. “A good enough name. It does have a certain bite to it. But the word is too limiting to describe me, and you should know that it is not all that I represent.”
“Which is?”
He looked to Dalinar. “Passion, Dalinar Kholin. I am emotion incarnate. I am the soul of spren and of men. I am lust, joy, hatred, anger, and exultation. I am glory and I am vice. I am the very thing that makes men men.”
L: Hooboy. Lots to unpack here. I’d like to start with the end. If he’s the Shard of emotion, what does this mean for humans on other planets? Are their emotions bound up, through distance, to Odium as well? If destroyed, would humanity in its entirety cease to have emotion at all?
AA: There’s a recent WoB about how the power of every Shard is spread throughout the Cosmere. I can’t find the whole conversation that I think I remember reading, but the implication is that while there’s a concentration of that Shard’s Intent in its physical location, its essence is also in everything that exists. So I think the answer is no; if Odium were destroyed, there would still be emotion in the universe. And that’s even if he really were telling the truth about being all emotions instead of just hatred.
L: This really makes me wonder if Odium had a better vessel, things might not be different. Perhaps all that’s required here is for someone (with better morals) to take him down and take up the mantle themselves.
AA: It would make a difference, but I don’t know how much. As near as I can tell, the Intent of a Shard is a lot more powerful than an individual’s personality. I mean, if it’s basically one sixteenth of God, that’s still way more potent than a single human, right?
AP: I think it would make a difference in which part manifests though. Rayse, by all accounts, was not the most selfless and kind dude. If his original vice was hatred, then it makes sense that hatred is magnified in his expression of the Shard. If someone whose nature was different had taken up that Shard, perhaps it would manifest in a different way.
AA: Back to the quote, though, I don’t believe him. I think he’s lying to himself about what he really is. I’ll believe him straight up on lust, hatred, anger, and vice; as for joy, exultation, and glory, I strongly suspect he represents only the more selfish or self-aggrandizing versions of those things. In one of the quotes below, he mentions “the joy of victory”—which I’m betting is more like “the joy of having brutally defeated the other guy.” There’s an old saying, something about vices merely being corrupted virtues, that I think applies to Odium: he’s the corrupted version of every good emotion. The egotistical, selfish, it’s-all-about-me-feeling-good versions of emotions.
And… that’s probably more than enough philosophizing from me today! I think I spent too much time in the Arcanum and my brain is boiling over.
AP: I think all emotions have the potential to be damaging in excess, even positive ones. It’s emotion untempered, uncontrolled.
Quality Quotations
“Emotion. It is what defines men—though ironically you are poor vessels for it. It fills you up and breaks you, unless you find someone to share the burden.”
* * *
It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.
It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.
It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.
And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.
* * *
“Even as old people go, that one was extra creepy,” she said softly. “What was that thing, tight-butt? Didn’t smell like a real person.”
“They call it Odium,” Dalinar said, exhausted. “And it is what we fight.”
“Huh. Compared to that, you’re nothing.”
“Thank you?”
She nodded, as if it were a compliment.
L: Interesting to note that she smells his unnaturalness on him…
Next week, we’ll be starting in on the second set of Interludes. We’ll be taking each one on individually in its own week, so join us next time for a little dip into the life of a Soulcaster. In the meantime, join us in the comments below—but please be aware that people will certainly be posting Cosmere speculation, so spoilers will abound. Proceed with caution!
Alice is getting soggier by the day, out here in the rainforest.
Lyndsey is excited to finally have a private figure skating coach to help make her Yuri!!! On Ice cosplay dreams a reality. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree is considering taking Awesomeness lessons from Lift. Perhaps she will start with making pancakes…
I believe the mystery metal found in Mistborn era 2 is from one of the otherwise yet unseen 6 shards. I have no evidence to back this up.
I’m one of the people who believes Rayse is not being honest when he claims to be all emotions. Although, emotion divorced from all other qualities might end up manifesting itself as only the most extreme versions of itself. I changed my mind, I’m actually on the fence about whether he’s being honest there. Functionally though, he still is an a-hole.
I always loved this chapter because it does show us the seemingly big bad, and it always got me thinking. I personally think that Hoid may be the true “big bad” as in..he DOES want to be the true god, hence why he’s collecting every single bit of investiture he can find. I put quotes around that because Hoid’s purpose may be for the greater good, to either bring it back, or to become it, but eventually there’s gonna be a big reveal that Adosalisum may not have been good for the cosmere. Look at Sazed, whose character has truly changed since he picked up harmony, where he’s frustrated with humanity, where he outright lies now with seemingly no regret. Hoid may change for the worst, and our heroes have to stop him. Nightblood may be a key to that, but we will get to our favorite evil destroying sword later.
If Syl is an Honor spren and Wyndle is a Cultivation spren, I wonder what connection (if any) Odium might have to the various emotion spren we’ve seen. Angerspren, Joyspren, Passionspren, Shamespren, etc.
Regarding the 6 remaining shards, I have a theory that one of them will be Rhythm. And she/he/they are behind the rhythms that the Listeners can hear.
The nature of Odium’s true Intent (or the nature of the Shard pre-Odium) is possibly still up in the air. Is Frost infallible? Maybe he’s wrong about what that Shard was. Of course, Odium could just be lying. In some ways, he seems too clever and canny to be just raw emotion. Or talking from ‘another point of view’. Perhaps in some sense ‘divine hatred’ could be equated to passion (in its true context it could be passion for justice, good, etc. I guess it depends on what Adonalsium hates…).
I thought there was a statement somewhere too (in book – was it one of Hoid’s letters?) that Rayse was basically pretty suited for the Shard of Odium even before he picked it up – although again, how fallible that statement is, we don’t know. At any rate, he doesn’t appear to have been a universally liked guy. But it’s an interesting theory that even if the shard did represent emotion/passion, that the nature of the holder is part of what amplified specific emotions.
That chapter. Was very interesting. However, as someone who read only mistborn and stormligh archive, who isn’t aware of “Cosmere”, who never checks Sanderson’s interviews and wiki or check them rarely, I start feeling totally lost in all this realmatic stuff. This line:
“You have been placed in a difficult position, my son,” Odium said. “You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god.”
What are remnants of a god? The Stormfather? Why is Dalinar connected to them? Because the Stormfather is his spren? How is it possible that the Stormfather is…a remnant of a god if he is a spren?
What is Shard? Seriously, no book has this information. I read about it on wiki…Who is Dalinar? Honor? Mini-honor? If he is Honor, why he is so weak compared with Odium?
In any case, that’s where I stopped understanding the whole thing. It’s not a book flaw, but my mere observation. For people who aren’t die hard “Cosmere” fans it can be hard to follow some plots.
Chapter foreshadows Dalinar’s…thing in the end of the book (that I didn’t fully understand too. or I don’t need to understand it yet? is it supposed to be a mystery?) thus very interesting. I just wish I could understand stuff like that better. Especially when it revolves around Dalinar.
Oh, Alice, my sweet summer child. Assuming Brandon maintains the current 3 years between publications, the future looks like this: 2020 (4) and 2023 (5). That completes the first half of the Stormlight Archive, which is intended to function as complete ending. Then, according to Brandon, he’s going to take about a 5 year real-world break to write other stuff, mainly Mistborn Era 3, before starting back up with the 2nd half of SA. So, conservatively, he would start book 6 in 2029 and have it published in 2030. And then it should go 2033 (7), 2036 (8), 2039 (9), and 2042 (10).
And that’s probably conservative. So it could really be 25-30 years before he starts Dragonsteel. In other words, we’re going to have to have our grandchildren read it to us in the nursing home!
Ettmetal is harmonium, that is, Sazed’s godmetal. It was confirmed by asking if we’ve seen ettmetal’s symbol and he slipped by saying harmonium. We’re not supposed to know >.>
That! I was always thinking in a similar way about Odium, but I wasn’t able to put it into words. A corrupted, intensified version of emotion that is by itself neither evil nor good, but standing alone without balance leads to something dangerous. This also fits other aspects such as corrupted Spren that are somehow intensified, distorted so that their looks represent even stronger emotions/elements (blue fire instead of orange which would usually indicate a hotter flame, or other Spren with stronger – often red or black – colors). Another example are the Rhythms as heard by Listeners that bonded Voidspren (e.g. Rhythm of Command instead of Rhythm of Appreciation, Ridicule instead of Amusement, etc.).
I still can’t imagine why they shattered Andonalsium in the first place. As we have already seen with Ruin an Preservation, a Intent of a single Shard does not seem to be beneficial for humanoid lifeforms… Honor did go nuts at the end – was it because he was dying that lead to his on bonds and nothing else? And we don’t have any idea by now what Cultivations endgame might be (in terms of good vs. bad guy)…
Can’t wait to find out. So, @6 Austin, please don’t be so overly realistic. It shatters my hopes that I will see the end of all of this ;-)
So first my thoughts and then I will catch up on the comments
Perhaps the reason for the Herald of the dustbringers is they were originally called The Releasers who were very good at destroying, and a good chunk of this chapter is about Odium wanting to be released, and the destruction he could bring if he was released. Just a thought. Might be totally out there.
As to Dungeons and Dragons, what helps is there are two Axises to go by. The first is as mentioned, Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic. The other is Good, Neutral, Evil. Javert I would say was Lawful Neutral. Whether the laws hurt or helped was immaterial to Javert so long as the laws were obeyed and upheld. Jean would be Chaotic Good as he stole bread to feed his family if I recall correctly. So for Jean, he will break the laws so he can help others. I would say the priest was Neutral Good or potentially Lawful Good. The priest holds to a higher law, ie God, than the law of the land so that could be considered lawful. However I lean towards Neutral because although he does follow the law, he will skirt it if he feels the law is harmful to people. Odium I could see as Lawful Evil, as he is using his knowledge and “laws” to control and rule with an iron fist. This goes for me, with the sense of cockiness he shows. It is the cockiness of someone who holds all the cards, and knows how the game will end. Or at least he thinks he does…..
Regarding Alice’s point on kintsugi, it has been confirmed via interviews with Brandon, that that is actually his inspiration for Forgery, and the Emporer’s Soul. Always found that tidbit of info awesome :)
@1 soursavior
LOL
@2 Steven Hedge
Ehhhh, I still feel people are too hard on Sazed, but I respect that people are going to feel about him the way they are going to. To each their own I guess.
@@.-@ Lisemarie
I agree I believe somewhere in the book Hoid mentions that Rayse is well suited to the shard, though I cannot recall where. There is however a WoB that does confirm that. I can post that if you like because I can find that faster than in the book. They say that Rayse fits his shard, picked the shard for that reason, and doesn’t want to pick up any other shards for fear it would change him. As for whether odium is Rayse’s true intent or not, I believe there are WoB on that too. If I recall correctly it confirms that odium is his true intent, but also states that how a vessel interprets that intent can play a role in how the shard functions. So how Rayse views the shard of Odium could affect how it plays out
@5 lordruler
To answer some of your questions. First Odium was referring to Honor. The stormfather merged with the cognitive shadow of Honor when he was killed and shattered. That means that the stormfather and now Dalinar by extension have a Connection (big C in this case) to the shard that is Honor. Yes Dalinar is Connected through his bond with the Stormfather. The stormfather is a remnant of a god because as I said he merged with what was “left” of honor. As Alice and Aubree mentioned (very well I might add), is that there was a being known as Adonalsium. A group came along, for reasons we do not know yet, and “shattered” it. This resulted in 16 “Shards” of Adonalsium’s power. These shards each carry an Intent. This Intent usually coincides with their name but not always. Alice and Aubree listed the ones we know so far, and what they have been up to so far. Give it another read, they really did a great job breaking things down. As to why Dalinar is weaker than Odium at this time, is because the shard Honor is still shattered, which means the power is sort of spread out. Also keep in mind Rayse, the holder of Odium has had a lot of time and practice with his shard, while Dalinar is just starting to learn. So like I said in my prior comment, Odium kind of has all the cards, or at least thinks he does. That is why he is “stronger” than Dalinar. If you have further questions or things you are confused on, feel free to private message me or post here and I will be happy to explain as this seems to be a very cosmere heavy chapter so would be relevant to discuss.
@6 Austin
Hey, considering all I will have done for my children and grandchildren when I one day have them, they can stand to read me some books despite my potentially horrible hearing by then. Don’t care, still worth the wait! lol
@7 pandact
yep yep lol
@8 bird
Well we do not know if the group that shattered Adonalsium even realized that is what would happen. They could have done it, seen the power break into pieces and worried what would happen if it was left to its own devices, decided to pick it up. So many mysteries!
@5 I believe that when he says Dalinar is bonded to the remnants of a god, Odium is referencing that Honor, as he died, entrusted a large portion of his power (Investiture as it is called in the Cosmere) to the Stormfather. This changed the Stormfather from just being a powerful spren to a very powerful spren and one who is more self-aware. (for example, the stormfather now has power to create honor spren, which previously only Honor could do). He also gave the Stormfather those visions and memories to share with the next bondsmith. So the Stormfather is a remnant of a god in that he has the final mission/intent/memories of Honor and a large portion of his power which has/is changing him.
Dalinar, thus, I would say is mini-Honor, or Honor-in-training…maybe. Honestly, the whole ending thing is still unclear for all of us, I think. Is “Unity” with it’s capital “U” and new entity or just a step on Dalinar’s journey to perhaps become a new holder of Honor’s power?
Finally, a Shard is 1 of 16 pieces of the former god Adonalsium. That god’s power was broken into 16 pieces so think of a plate breaking into… shards. 16 people took up those Shards and became Vessels. So, a shard is something like Honor, Cultivation, Ruin, etc and a Vessel is the person (Tanavast, Ati, Rayse, Sazed). But, in practice the Vessel is often refered to by the name of the Shard. When we say Honor died we mean that Tanavast died. The Shard only “dies” if it is splintered. So… since you’ve read Mistborn, Ati and Leras (Ruin and Preservation) both die in the last book but the Shards are left intact for Sazed to assume the power. Honor, it appears has died in both senses. Tanavast is dead and the Shard is splintered. What is unclear is if a splintered shard can be recombined for a new vessel…
Hope that helps!
Edit: looks like Scath beat me to it. :)
Also, @2 Steven: count me as one who is giving Hoid the side-eye. As he told Shallan, don’t trust him. I mean, I love Hoid, but I don’t trust him fully.
Well, Thank you for responding @Scáth
I spend some time on Cosmere wiki and now more or less see the whole picture, but only superficially. Many things are still confusing. I knew there are sixteen Shards of Adonalsium, there are three of them on Roshar,and those…two things from mistborn were also Shards. But honestly, I would never guess without wiki. That leads to a very interesting question: stormlight archive…is it stand alone or not? Can you read it without the rest of BS series and not getting lost?
For the rest, I didn’t understand how and why Honor and the Stormfather are connected. I used to think the Stormfather is a…spren of the storm?Storm itself? And now he is Honor’s ghost or Honor’s remnant…Why Honor merged with the Stormfather when he died? What exactly was merged…Shard itself or soul of that dude who was talking with Dalinar in a dream? Yeah, there is also a dude, “holder” of Honor. Man, my head is exploding.
” That means that the stormfather and now Dalinar by extension have a Connection (big C in this case)”
In the later chapter (somewhere near the end) Dalinar also says something like “We are Connected, I, the Stormfather’s soul and Honor’s body or remnants” “Connected” was also capitalized.
So, according to Dalinar, they are (the Stormfather and Honor’s remnants) two different things or what? I will find a quote for you if you want.
Thank you @whitespine
So the Stormfather is a small chunk of Honor. Still don’t understand how the “merging” happened, and what’s so special in the Stormfather.
“Honestly, the whole ending thing is still unclear for all of us, I think.”
Huh. I LOVED the ending and it was so funny, because I didn’t understand what exactly did happen there, but was super happy with it anyway. Yeah, “Unity”…I have no idea what does it mean. I used to think, Dalinar will say “I am Honor”, but “Unity” is something…something unexpectable and unclear. And cool.
@11 whitespine
Lol great minds think alike!
@12 Lordruler
No problem. So to clarify some more things. First, Brandon has said he started the Cosmere where the books can be read as stand alones, with the wider implications being left to easter eggs and the background. The idea is you could read the series and have a self contained beginning, middle and end, and be fine. However there will be hints of something larger in the background. Brandon has said as the Cosmere progresses, this will gradually come more and more into the foreground. We are seeing this more with Mistborn Era 2, and some with Stormlight. As with Stormlight in particular, Brandon has said he does intend to keep it relatively self contained, so if you have no interest in the broader cosmere, you could just stick with the 10 books of stormlight and be fine, though there will be little tidbits here and there that will leave questions, such as Azure, Zahel, and Nightblood for instance. You do not have to know their past, but it is still alluded to.
Now as to the merging of Honor and the Stormfather. When someone dies in the cosmere, depending on how much investiture they held during their life, they “stick around” for a little bit after. If you are regular joe schmo, you tend to go to the “Beyond” quickly. But if you have powers (mistborn, radiant, elantrian, etc), depending on how strong, you stick around longer, but eventually you still go to the Beyond. If however, you get suffused with investiture, it sort of “becomes” you. Much like how petrified wood is actually minerals in the shape of the wood. It holds the form of the wood, but it isn’t exactly the wood anymore. So when Tanavast (the person, also known as Vessel), was killed, because a shard is so high in investiture concentration, his cognitive shadow stuck around for awhile after. This shadow voluntarily merged with the Stormfather. The reason this is possible is at its core investiture is investiture is investiture. All spren are investiture that gained sapience. Now what also helped is the stormfather is investiture associated with Honor already. So it is kind of like pouring a gallon of saltwater into a container that only held a cup of tap water. They go together pretty easily but now the tap water is altered by the salinity of the salt water and the container gets expanded to larger than it was. So Tanavast is dead, and Honor is shattered, but a large enough portion of the power in the form of a cognitive shadow, merged with the Stormfather, changing the Stormfather, and making him more powerful than before, but not as strong as a Shard. Did that illustration help?
edit: little side note. there is a whole thing about investiture tied to identity interferes with other investiture, but for the purpose of the above illustration, you do not need to know it. However if you wish to, I can explain that as well.
@13, I also loved the ending. But I was left with a big “huh?” about what exactly happened, haha. What does it all mean!? :)
Maybe when Rosharan hogs fly.
Well, apparently even evil chulls fly on Roshar, so … :)
This really makes me wonder if Odium had a better vessel, things might not be different. Perhaps all that’s required here is for someone (with better morals) to take him down and take up the mantle themselves.
Lisamarie and scath already mentioned it more or less directly, but in addition to what has been said, isn’t there a line in the epigraphs of WoK also (not having the nook at handright now for the exact quote) that states that Ati was the most generous and nice person before taking up Ruin?
I can’t read BWS’s mind, but I’m sure we are (pardon the pun) Intended to be mystified by the ending of Oathbringer.
It occurred to me this week that Mraize is almost an anti-Hoid. (This continues my theme of finding a reverse-image of all viewpoint characters.) They both collect Investiture, but Hoid collects it by Connecting to it–he becomes an Allomancer and an Awakener and a Radiant, and tries but fails to become an Elantrian. Mraize collects artifacts (sand from Taldain, an Aviar, his whole collection that Shallan sees). Hoid is highly emotional. Mraize is highly stoic. Mraize is scarred. Hoid heals from all injuries. Hoid can’t use violence. Mraize … not so much, maybe?
#5, @lordruler:
I have mentioned in other threads: “spren” clearly comes from Chinese “shen”. Like its Japanese equivalent “kami”, shen means “any supernatural being” and can include anything from a tree-spirit to the tutelary spirit of an entire forest, to the goddess of all forests everywhere. Those Asian cultures don’t distinguish as sharply between “god” and “spirit” as the late Abrahamic tradition you may be familiar with. Note that Rock worships all spren as gods. He isn’t wrong per se, he is just using a different definition.
@16 – There are also multiple WoBs (Word of Brandon) where he explicitly says that the Shard’s Intent will eventually overcome the personality of the Vessel.
Maybe Odium is pleased with the Recreance because he helped cause it? I know that we speculate on which emotion(s) caused the Radiants to abandon their oaths after finding out the truth about humans and Roshar. I agree that the Recreance would be an overreaction to the negative emotions they might feel. So, what if Odium took advantage of the shock and shame and offered the Radiants something that in their weakened emotional stake they couldn’t refuse? What if he offered to show them the way to the Tranquiline Halls? We’ve established that this is a real place, Ashyn, right? Do we know where they went after they abandoned their shards? Could they have gone to Ashyn, “heaven”, on the urging of Odium? “Hey, you guys don’t belong here, you never belonged here. Look at all the trouble you’ve caused. Everything that you’re fighting for is a lie. How would you like to finally be able to leave it all behind and move on to the Tranquiline Halls? All you have to do is abandon your spren. They’re not really a part of you anyway. I can show you the way.” I mean, talk about a Passion. The desire for eternity in “heaven”. At an overall low emotional point, maybe they all bought in. Maybe they saw an opportunity to move on and start over. Could be that their descendants are all still on Ashyn, living a totally different life. Humans have already established the capacity to leave one world for another in this Cosmere when they messed things up too bad. Maybe Odium convinced the Radiants to do the same by playing to their Passions and offering them an alternative.
@13: As, far as I understand it, the Stormfather Story goes something like this:
When Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar, the Stormfather 1.0 and the Nightwatcher 1.0 already existed, as some sort of big powerful spren. Honor did something to make the SF his, and Cultivation did the same thing to the NW. Call this the 1.5 version.
Then Honor died. As he was dying he passed on his power- which included an imprint of his personality- to the SF. The Stormfather 2.0 is a new type of thing and no one really knows what he can do, including him. So he’s in the same boat as all those amnesiac lesser spren, really.
@19 Cayour
Hmmm, that would be interesting considering how the thrill and the heart of the revel work by amplifying emotions. Though Radiants do seem to be insulated from it somewhat due to being Radiants. Then again the Midnight Mother had quite the effect on Shallan, and one would assume Odium could bring to bear more power with Honor being dead. So interesting theory.
@lordruler
So the way I see it is you have the Shards…Honor, Cultivation and Odium. They are the big entities. Gods if you will. Next order of entities are the big spren. You got the Stormfather who is connected to Honor. The Nightwatcher who is connected to Cultivation. I see them as parent and child (whether created or adopted). So Honor is “dad”, and Stormfather is “son”. And then there’s Third Sibling. Are they connected to Odium? Connected to a 4th shard we don’t know about yet (this is my current fav theory)? Or just a big spren not connected to anyone thank you very much.
Then you have the sentient spren, like Syl and those capable of forming a Nahel bond. Then the little spren.
Odium shattered Honor, it is no longer a complete sentient entity on its own. Honor managed to give a good portion of itself to the Stormfather. So now the “son” is closer to “dad”. Not a complete Shard, but bigger than the “big spren” he was before. What that exactly means, we don’t know.
The Stormfather formed a Nahel bond with Dalinar, making our grumpy old man a Bondsmith. This comes with a certain set of powers, like any other bond. But because the Stormfather is a different entity now, the bond is conferring new and interesting powers to Dalinar. So his moment where he aligned all three Realms and reopened Honor’s Perpendicularity was a huge WTF moment for all involved, including the Stormfather. How was he able to do that? We don’t know yet. Will he eventually become the new Honor? Become something else? Well, that’s a huge RAFO (Read And Find Out).
I hope this helps out. :)
As for Odium in particular, I had an interesting (to me anyway) thought whilst going through the reread. In traditional Christian dogma, the devil is set up as an evil entity, intent on tempting humanity away from the straight and narrow path set down by God. In some of the oldest stories, he does this to prove to God that humanity isn’t worth the love and attention the Almighty showers on the “hairless monkeys”.
However, in some modern reinterpretations, Satan/Lucifer represents total self-empowerment. Looking out for the self first, and focusing on the here and now, as opposed to having all of your actions be about your eternal reward in the hereafter.
On the surface, the laws of self-empowerment aren’t necessarily a bad thing, provided they come with the concepts of responsibility, empathy, community and an understanding of a common good.
Odium seems to be setting up as an embodiment of total self-empowerment without responsibility. Which of course is really bad. So now I’m curious if modern Satanism/Lucifari ideas were an inspiration for Odium. Because if it is, then it may inform some of Honor’s story before his shattering.
Anyway, seems I got hit by the musespren (hi Andrew!) this morning. ;)
Thanks, as always, for the reread! It’s a highlight of my week. <3
Since he wants Dalinar to be his champion Odium is not happy that Dalinar is so closely connected to Honor and Cultivation influenced him to become a better person.
Is the One religion about the splintering of Adonalsium? And if Hoid is trying to reassemble Adonalsium, what would the believers in that religion think of that?
@22 sarrow
Wasn’t there a WoB that said only three Shards came to Roshar? I tried to find it, but failed… Would your theory still be possible, if the fourth Shard did not visit Roshar directly?
@carl I love your “reverse parallels” not only the character related ones. The whole series seems to be a huge ketek :) Do you have a list written down somewhere which collects all your findings?
@24 bird
here you go. yep there have only been the three
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/247/#e5523
I think Odium is the violet-black flame of hatred, the Void that sucks other emotions in. Over and over in Oathbringer Odium and his minions talk about people giving Odium their Passion and people feeling empty inside afterwards.
Any emotions other than Odium are ones he’s sucked up from others over the millennia.
“He’s coming” … “The one who hates,” she whispered. “The darkness inside. Kaladin he’s watching, Something’s going to happen. Something bad.” – Syl in WoR Ch. 32
“Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion”
@25 scath
Many thanks. Thought there was a longer one that elaborated on that… And I also found entries that stated that basically all Shards have been on Roshar on some point in time. So I got confused. ^^
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/296/#e9816
It may have been mentioned before, but I’ve always been of the belief that the Third Spren that could make a Bondsmith is the ocean spren from Axies’ interlude in TWoK. It’s the only other spren we know of that’s been mentioned that there’s only one of.
@28 LazerWulf. I agree. And it would make sense for the sibling to be associated with water.
Stormfather = sky
Nightwatcher = land
Sibling (Cusicesh) = water
Odium says in this chapter that there are only three Shards on Roshar.
@28,29:
And:
@24 & 25
Aww…that was my favorite theory. ;)
Well, that’s cool tho, means the Third Sib is someone else entirely. I also think that the Third Sib is not attached to Odium, that’s what the Unmade are for.
Hmm… now that you mention it, I may be assuming a false equivalency with the Three Siblings and the Three Bondsmiths. Has it been explicitly stated that bonding the Nightwatcher would make one into a Bondsmith? If so, does that mean that there is/was a bondsmith of Odium?
@27 bird
No problem. I think that is Brandon dancing around a bit, because he has also confirmed via WoB that Adonalsium created Roshar, so technically all of the shard have been present on Roshar when they were all one in Adonalsium. But that is just my interpretation of the WoB you posted. I could be wrong.
@28 LazerWulf and @29 Toothlessjoe
So I agree with the both of you, and I still feel it is Cusicesh the Protector, but there have been WoB on multiple occasions that hint it is not. I personally think Brandon is dancing around it, and because the Sibling got hurt, that is why Cusicesh is currently lesser than the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, but there are a lot of people that believe it isn’t Cusicesh. I believe Alice is one of the big proponents against it being Cusicesh. Alice, could you ring in on the reasons you believe the Sibling isn’t Cusicesh? I do not want to misrepresent that argument.
edit: Austin beat me to it. Thanks for the WoB!
Maybe Scath can locate this, since they seem to be expert at navigating the coppermind, but I remember reading somewhere that a powerful enough spren can bond multiple humans, just as a human could theoretically bond multiple spren. With that in mind, it’s entirely possible all three bondsmiths could be bound to Stormfather.
@33
That’s how I took it. I believe it’s the same conversation where the Stormfather tells Dal he doesn’t need to know about the Third Sib. There’s 3 Bondsmiths, and three Siblings who bond them. But knowing Branderson, there’s probably a twist we haven’t thought of yet. ;)
@35 soursavior
The big thing I need to go by is keywords. So far I did searches with “spren multiple human”, “powerful spren”, “spren multiple”, “spren bond” and “stormfather multiple”. All I have found so far is that the Stormfather has bonded people in the past prior to Dalinar, that a human can bond multiple spren (though it would be difficult), and that different spren choose their radiants different ways (on their own, via committe, etc). Is there anything else potentially unique about the WoB that you can recall that I could use to locate it? Even if it is a potential word not specifically related to the question but might have been unique in the circumstance. For instance if while talking about it, he said “hijinks” or something. That is how I locate WoB on the Arcanum, and scenes in my kindle.
edit: i did find an interesting WoB in the process that does equate Aviar with a nahel bond, though theirs is weaker which is why switching from human to human is easier but it doesn’t really help as to whether an Aviar could be bonded to multiple humans at the same time which would then flow into the question of if spren could bond multiple humans. Hmmm, I will keep trying to dig
@35
That’s an interesting idea. Hadn’t thought of that. However, I would lean more towards 3 unique Bondsmiths for the three Sibs. As each Sib would have different powers/realms of influence, it makes sense to me that the Bondsmiths would be slightly different for balance.
To me, it’s like Bondmiths are the KRs that bridge the spren and the knights (even though each individual knight has their own spren bonded), because they are bonded with one of the Sibs. Does that make sense? If it doesn’t, I’ll try again. LOL
So dunno if this affects anyone theories, but I came across the WoB that discusses how there are only three bondsmiths. Maybe the way it is said can clarify things for people. Posted below
Ghodicu
The pocket companion states that there are three spren that can bond a person to make them into a bondsmith, the Stormfather being one of them. As far as I recall the books implied that the number was low, and implied heavily that it was around that number in an epigraph, but didn’t actually have a straight confirmation. So, should i take that as canon?
Brandon
yes, you can take that as canon. They came to me for that information
yahasgaruna
Sweet. I guess it hasn’t been canonized which three spren these are? I seem to recall that the prevailing theory on the 17th shard was that the Nightwatcher was one of them, and the third was that weird spren with too many faces that Axies the Collector looked at in the WoK interlude
Brandon
RAFO :)
The thing I love about this chapter is the fact that everything we find out regarding the Cosmere is from Odium’s perspective (of course). Now, depending on how you see it, everything Odium has told Dalinar is a barefaced lie or at best a half truth, I like to believe that Odium always plants a lie in a truth as it makes it easier to believe. Now this leads to a few things; one, how Odium believes he is correct in doing everything he is doing and fleshes out what could be a one-dimensional evil bad guy demi-God into something more human and tragic (I seem to find a lot of characters in Stormlight tragic, apart from Moash, No redemption arc for Moash indeed). Two, it leaves the decision on whether Odium is right and if you agree with what Odium is doing up to the reader, this I love because it shows that the author trusts his readership enough to not spoon-fed them platitudes and simple Good vs Evil Fantasy cliches.
As for where I stand on the subject, I haven’t made up my mind yet as I don’t know enough due to the wider tale not being written yet (ha), I am sorta seeing an ending for Odium where he falls to his knees and whines and pleads how everything he has done has been for a higher purpose and how it just isn’t fair (although upon re-reading I have a vision of Anakin Skywalker putting the blame on Obi-Wan for his slaughtering a lot of 10 year old Jedi and Tusken Raiders, so maybe not).
As to the point brought up over whether you need to read the works in order, personally I think not, I started the Cosmere saga with Stormlight despite people saying I should read Mistborn era 1, then Elantris, then Warbreaker first (but I WANNA READ STORMLIGHT! I wailed). This leads to a few befuddled moments over the importance of certain characters (for example, when Wit first appeared) although I tend to believe that the books work better when you don’t know what exactly is going on, these are Gods we are talking about after all.
It does make me laugh regarding the advice Dalinar receives at the start of the book about making it so Odium is willing to accept a contest of champions, then the first thing he does when actually meeting Odium is challenge him to appoint a Champion. I picture Honor/Stormfather shaking their head and going “no, Dalinar, that’s not what I meant”. Actually, concerning the challenge of Champions and how Odium’s challenger seems familiar to Dalinar, obviously Dalinar was Odium’s first choice as Champion but maybe could it be that Odiums Champion could actually be Gavilar now? (I am sure other people have put forward this possibility before although I haven’t seen it) After all, Gavilar was not actually killed by a Shardblade and I assume his body was transformed by Soulcasting instead of being burnt. This is probably massively far-fetched though, but a showdown between Dalinar and a Gem hearted Gavilar with glowing red eyes just makes my inner fan boy squeal with excitement. (I add also that I haven’t read the chapter set directly after Gavilar’s death yet so this may be impossible due to being explained already there, ha)
Oh last thing, did anyone else apart from AP and myself get terrified at the way Brandon Sanderson had Odium turn really sharply but talk really softly upon Dalinar asking him to just leave (If only it were that simple, right?)
@40
Oh…I had warning klaxons going off in my head in that moment, and prayed that Dal did too. That was scary AF.
Thanks Alice, Aubree and Lyndsey
Re: Big Bad – I am leaning more and more towards the theory that Odium is not the Big Bad of the Cosmere (he may not even be the big bad of Stormlight Archives). Depending on how Brandon chooses to write it, I think Autonomy or Cultivation have the type of Intents which taken to the extreme could lead to either of them being the Big Bad. For that matter, Brandon could even have Sazed take the conflicting Intents of Ruin and Preservation and evolve from Harmony to Discord and become the ultimate threat to the Cosmere with 2x the power of any other Shard.
(But if I had to put money on it, I’d pick Autonomy as the most likely candidate)
As for Odium, when it comes to his stance on his true Intent being “Passion”, I don’t believe him (then again, I don’t think we should be skeptical of anything Odium tells Dalinar in this book, but…) He’s instrumental in the death of at least 4 Shards, and has already threatened to kill a fifth when given the opportunity. His perception and motivation should definitely be questioned.
@32, Do you mean in a way that Odium cannot create something pure, I always found the concept of the Unmade and there being 9 of them very Ringwraith, although The Unmade have far more character than the Ringwraiths of course. It is interesting to ponder if Odium being about Passion also means he is a source of Corruption? I know that may seem similar to Ruin, but I am getting a “he can only corrupt and create objects in a mockery of their original purity” vibe from Odium.
@42. I am just waiting for the big epic moment where the Knights Radiant feel all triumphant at their Victory over the Fused (I don’t know if they can actually beat Odium but merely drive him away) and then it all turns sour when they all realise that as bad as Odium is, he’s not actually that bad (hmm, am I swaying to an Odium is right opinion, hope not) and here comes someone against whom they really have no hope of victory.
@43
Well, I originally thought that Honor and Cultivation created Stormfather and Nightwatcher as their children, and that Odium created the Unmade as his kids. Now thinking about Stormfather and Nightwatcher as high entities before Honor and Cultivation got there and claimed/elevated/adopted them as their childer, I’m leaning more towards Odium corrupting the Unmade, who seem to be a second or third tier of spren after Stormfather and Nightwatcher.
Odium is a decent idea taken to an absurd and destructive end, IMO. Self empowerment is a good thing, as it leads to authentic ideas, and if it’s partnered with the concepts of responsibility, community and empathy, tends to create decent people. Odium’s first tenant seems to be, you have no responsibility, give it to me. It’s all my fault you’re doing those obscene and destructive things. Go! Do! Break things! YES! *insert evil, mustache twirling, laughter there*
This pattern of behavior makes sense if we look at the other shards we know fairly well…Ruin and Preservation. They started out in a fairly compatible partnership, but over time, their singular natures became stronger. Ruin became Entropy and Preservation became Stasis (for the lack of better terms), and it isn’t until Harmony that we see some sort of balance brought back to the world and the shards.
Does Odium know what is happening on planets in other Systems? Or is his knowledge limited to the Rosharan System? Also, since Odium came to inhabit Braize and became somehow tied to the Rosharan System, did he lose the ability to enter other Systems. Do other holders of Shards (other than Odium) have the ability to go to Systems other than those which they are currently associated?
I wonder which concerns Odium more: Nightblood or Hoid. I specifically did not use the term fear. I do not think Odium fears anything. Somethings or people may concern him more than others. But fear is one thing I do not see Odium having. To answer my own question, I think Odium is more concerned with Hoid. I think Odium believes he would be able to convince Nightblood that Odium is not evil. Rather, Odium is a subset of the greater Passion. And Passion can be used for good and to fight evil.
Speaking of fear, I wonder if one of the yet to be revealed Shards is Fear (the one who just wants to hide). If so, I could see the holder of Fear hiding in an obscure location in an away part of some obscure and insignificant System. Alternatively, the holder of Fear could become so obsessed with his/her Fear, it causes him/her to build a great army and try to go on the offensive before some other Shard attacks Fear.
Alice, Aubree and Lyndsey: Rather than an as yet unrevealed Shard, could the use of the capital “I” for Intent be something like the way Brandon uses the word “Ideal” (with a capital “I”) for the KR Orders when the KR advance to the next level (or the word word “Truth” for Lightweavers)?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@@@@@Lord Ruler.
I thought it was said somewhere in the book that The Stormfather was a manifestation of the Rosharan’s belief in the Almighty being the storm. The way I took it, it ties in with the cognitive realm and identity with Stormfather later becoming combined with Honor after gaining sentience and evolving. Sorry for non-specifics, I have only read the series once and I am now working my way through it character chapter by chapter but I am pretty sure that is correct (Feel free to correct me if I am wrong of course).
@@@@@ Cayour
As to the reasons of the recreance, I put forward previously that maybe the breaking of the Oathpact and the Recreance had something to do with Honor’s weakening and death before being corrected. From what I gathered, Honor at the time of the Recreance was delerious and delusion due to entering the last stage of being mortally wounded, so maybe the Knights Radiant betrayed humanity due to the concept of honor becoming more fuzzy? It would explain to me why a group of people who were bonded with a sentient species would perform an act that would intentionally wipe out a whole generation of sentient spren. As to the exact specifics of why they did it, we just don’t know enough yet although Feverstone Keep seems mighty important due to the hints dropped.
As for trusting anything Odium says and travelling to an new world and having descendants, I am not certain. I would think that Odium would have preferred to trick the Radiants into travelling to Ashyn before wiping them out. It seems the sort of tieing up loose ends thing he would do to me, especially since the surviving Radiants would be mortals after destroying their Nahel bonds. There is the possibility that Odium may have taken the form of Honor and convinced them to leave, but this seems unlikely given Odium’s character (in my newbie perspective, ha).
Sarrow @22.
Bird @27. I interpreted Brandon’s comment to mean that prior to the shattering, Adonalsium was on Roshar. Thus, technically all 16 Shards have been on Roshar. As Scath @34 said before me.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Lynn, I’m not sure I understand your statement here since Harmony is not two Shards
Isn’t this really a description of The Thrill, and possibly foreshadowing Dalinar’s connection to it?
RE: Third Spren
Why are people thinking it is the water spren from WoK and not the living island from WoR? The latter seems to have more power/abilities, like creating the companion spren (or whatever it was called).
RE: Big Baddie
I’m going to wildly speculate here without much knowledge, so be forewarned. I’m going to use a couple of non-Cosmere illustrations.
The first illustration would be the liquid metal terminator in Terminator 2. What happens to the power of a Shard when it is shattered? My gut feeling is that the pieces try to regroup (I’ve tried to explain this in previous threads but others disagreed or I wasn’t all that clear, so I’m trying again). So, as shown in that movie, each drop of the Shard (or is it Intent at this point) tries to join with a similar drop, until finally the whole is reformed. However, in the Cosmere, all the Shards were originally Adonalsium, so it is unclear if the pieces will try to recreate the shard or instead merge with pieces from other shards. I’m guessing that some of both ends up happening, which will lead to a being (or violet cloud) partially made up of Honor, Autonomy, Dominion, and Devotion.
The second illustration is what happened to the spirits/gods in Princess Mononoke (which, if you haven’t seen it, go rent regardless of what you think of my ramblings). In the movie, there are spirits and gods who are killed. When this happens, they become demons and their power becomes corrupted so instead of spreading health and balance, they spread disease and ruin wherever they go. In large part, this happens because there is no intelligence guiding the power of the god.
So, my thought is that the the Big Baddie will end up being an amalgamation of the splintered Shards, a mixture of Intents without a mind to guide it and therefore more dangerous than any single Shard, even Odium..
@42 RogerPavelle The problem with that kind of theory is that we have seen the “wells” of shattered shards before, with Elantris. The pool that allows a elatrian to melt away IS Devotion’s connection to the cognitive realm. And What happens at the end of this book shows that’s not really how the shards work as well, seeing how Dalinar create’s Honor’s invesiure right on the spot. There’s more to it than their Intent, even when shattered.
scath @34, etc. – Yes, I’m definitely of the belief that the third Sibling is not Cusicesh. One of the reasons for this is Brandon’s statement that Cusicesh is a lower level than Nightwatcher and Stormfather. I rather suspect that Cusicesh might be at roughly the same level as the Unmade were before they were… unmade. There’s nothing I can point to and prove that it’s not the same spren, but I don’t think it makes sense. My personal theory is that originally, Stormfather was the personification of the highstorms, Nightwatcher was the personification of life/growth, and the Sibling was the personification of the Rosharan landmass/stone. We do know for sure that the Sibling isn’t tied to Odium the way Nightwatcher and Stormfather were tied to Cultivation and Honor; that position is occupied by the collective Unmade.
There’s one (IMO faint) possibility that could involve Cusicesh. It’s just possible that the Sibling is referred to as “them” because the Sibling was sort of like a Dysian Aimian – one being made up of many pieces. If that were the case, those pieces might be the “big spren” of stone, water, soil, mountains, plains… basically, the major spren of different parts/aspects of the planet. It’s even possible that some of those parts were coopted by Odium to become the Unmade, and Cusicesh is the only remaining part we’ve seen so far. (Maybe that’s why he’s so bizarre – he’s gone mad from seeing what was done to some of the others.) I have to admit it’s kind of a cool and interesting theory for the Sibling to be similar to the Dysians, but I don’t think it’s highly probable.
Andrew @45 – “Rather than an as yet unrevealed Shard, could the use of the capital “I” for Intent be something like the way Brandon uses the word “Ideal” (with a capital “I”) for the KR Orders when the KR advance to the next level (or the word word “Truth” for Lightweavers)?”
We weren’t saying Intent is an unrevealed Shard, if that’s what you’re asking. Each Shard has its own Intent, and in general that’s what they’re called. So the Intent of the Shard held by Tanavast was Honor, etc. And yes, it’s much the same thing as whenever a normal word is capitalized. There’s everyday intent and then there’s Intent. There are ideals, and then there are the Ideals. The capital letter means it’s about the magic somehow.
@Cusicesh being Bondsmith Spren
Aren’t the Unmade around for a much longer time. Meaning a time when three Bondsmiths definitely existed? If the third Bondsmith Spren could be a less powerful (in this case broken) Spren than Nightwatcher and Stormdaddy, than this would not contradict the theory. But Stormfather says somewhere (if I remember correctly; I don’t have Oathbringer at hand) that men hurted the Sibling and that he is slumbering since that.
Another question: If Odium wants to leave the Rosharan system, would he need to leave Splinters such as the Unmade behind, or could he reintegrate them?
#24, @bird:
I haven’t got a master list. In my ketek-analysis of the Archive, I’ve also mentioned Taravangian/Dalinar, the obvious Kaladin/Moash, and some plot stuff. Maybe I’ll turn it into an essay … hey, Tor, you want an essay on symmetry in the Stormlight Archive?
People keep talking about Odium lying. I’m more and more convinced he never consciously lies, for the same reason spren and Shards can’t break an oath. There’s a WoB that he is self-deluding, and sometimes he is simply wrong, but I doubt he actually lies. Since it was requested, note the Mistborn spoiler to follow.
I don’t recall Ruin actually lying to anyone, either. Misleading, yes.
As for Cusicesh as the Sibling, he’s of a lower order than the Nightwatcher or Stormfather are now. Remember that they were originally just powerful spren before being “adopted” by the Shards and (to quote Kaladin) set up as heirs. Remember how Stormfather constantly talks about how he understands mortals so much better than he used to, how he used to just be a big storm? I still don’t think Cusicesh is the Sibling, but the comparison does not prove me right.
@Scáth thank you for looking. Maybe I was just misremembering. I’ll try some keywords too and see if I get anywhere.
scath@39: So the only confirmation we got out of that was that the Three Bondsmiths bond with Three Different Spren, but while Stormfather is one of them, Nightwatcher and 3rd Sib are not necessarily the other two. (Still a valid theory, but not the only possibility.)
Wetlandernw@50 From a different WoB we know that Cusicesh is not 3rd Sib, but do you have the WoB where it states 3rd Sib is not related to Odium? If this is another false equivalency, we need to spread the word so that fallacy doesn’t spread.
Roger@48: The Living Island in WoR is a greatshell, not a spren, and just one of the Reshi Isles, all of which seem to be built on the backs of their own greatshells (as it talks about two islands “meeting”), so it’s hardly unique. I’m actually currently in the middle of listening to the WoR audiobook during my commute, and heard this interlude just last week. I don’t remember what the companion it gave Rysn was called, but it also wasn’t a spren, as it was a living specimen of the creature they were trading for a corpse of. Spren don’t leave corpses (unless you count Shardblades ~_^).
@54LazerWulf That creature is the Larkin, and is a creature that is very rare, Nale has one, and we see more of the Larkin, Chiri Chiri, in Oathbringer.
“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,”
We aren’t playing at a LOTR “but I am no man” scenario here are we?
@40 supermanmoustache
I agree. Brandon’s choice to use Odium as the voice of information in this case fills us with dread, but at the same time leaves us endlessly questioning, is he lying? Or is the best time the devil tells the truth is when it will hurt the most?
@42 KiManiak
I agree, I feel Odium is the big bad of Stormlight, but not the overall Cosmere. Maybe the Evil on Threnody is? I admit it is possible that Sazed turn into the ultimate bad guy, but for some reason I do not feel that will happen. But that is just my own feeling without anything concrete to back it up.
@45 AndrewHB
To the best of our knowledge, Odium is very knowledgable about the Cosmere and its going ons. It is Sazed who seems to be getting limited knowledge and is blocked by some entity. Odium seems limited from leaving the Rosharan system due to something Honor and Cultivation did. As per WoB it is related tangentially to the Oathpact but was not the original purpose of it. All shards can go to other systems, but if they hang out at a planet long enough, they begin to naturally invest in that planet, and it becomes harder to leave.
I would say both concern him pretty equally lol. Nightblood can think someone isn’t evil all he wants, but as long as someone can stick the pointy end into another someone, that person is going to go poof lol.
Brandon has been confirmed in saying the intent of the shard that wants to hide has nothing to do with the fact it wants to hide. So it could have the intent of earwax and could still want to hide lol.
@48 RogerPavelle
People theorize it is the water spren because it is unique, and was shown in particular. Basically Chekov’s gun. If you are going to go through the trouble of mentioning a gun in your book, that gun better have a purpose or get shot. So people are trying to figure out why that particular spren seems unique, and was made a point of being mentioned. Some people, such as me, still cling to the theory that that is a bondsmith spren, despite a good about of evidence saying otherwise. But in the end all we can do is RAFO lol.
@50 Wetlandernw
Thank you for ringing in! My concern was that since I disagreed with the theory, I would not portray it well as someone who did believe in it. I know my belief in the protector as being the sibling has a lot of evidence against it, I just can’t get rid of this feeling that it is. Completely unsupported, and unlikely, but I can’t help it lol.
@51 bird
considering Odium told a fused that if he would not obey, he would take back that which gave him life, I think Odium could reintergrate what he gave the Unmade into himself. Though interesting tidbit via WoB, Shards can “smite” people, but they cannot just cut off power to those who have access to it. So Sazed couldn’t just stop a mistborn from mistborning. Now that does call into question on whether or not if a Shard actively gifted some of its power to someone, whether or not it could take it back. Maybe Odium was lying to the fused after all?
@53 soursavior
No problem. Always happy to help locate a WoB. And that stands for anyone and any subject. Even if it runs counter to my own theories, please feel free to mention if there are WoB that you recall that disprove it, and I will be happy to help find them! I always love the share of information and learning new things
@54 Lazerwulf
Yeah that looks to be the most we know at this time. That there are three bondsmiths, and three bondsmith spren of which one of them is the stormfather. What the other definitively are, and in what combination is still up in the air.
@56 and others –
I definitely got much more of a Matthew 6:24 feel from that statement –
“No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
@58 sillyslovene
Thank you! I thought I was the only one that had gone that way. It seemed the logical reference.
As for in story, I wonder if Odium recognizes that Cultivation has messed with Dalinar, and that is why he is saying he’ll have to choose? Or is he saying Dalinar will have to pick between him and Honor? I lean toward the 2nd as I think what Cultivation did to Dalinar caught Odium completely by surprise.
@59 whitespine
Actually in the conversation in this chapter, Odium comments on what Cultivation did to Dalinar. Saying he would have done it differently, but “ah well”. So I think the trick is, he knew Cultivation took Dalinar’s memories, he just assumed his plans were so well laid, that it wouldn’t matter. He didn’t believe it would have the affect on Dalinar it did. Even Cultivation wasn’t sure, as she said it was a gamble, and she could be giving Odium a great weapon. So in the end, it was Dalinar who chose to be a better man for it. Cultivation’s trimming was no guarentee.
Speaking of Cultivation. Why did she think that helping Dalinar is very dangerous?
@61 lordruler
Because potentially Dalinar could just have easily gone the other way. Odium might have even thought taking Dalinar’s memories would help Odium’s cause, by Dalinar feeling overwhelmed when it all came crashing back. That Dalinar would take any chance he could to escape the voices, like he would do at the bottom of a bottle. But instead Dalinar chose to be a better man for it, and refuse Odium. That seems to be how Cultivation works. She makes a little poke or interference, and lets it play out to its own conclusion. People (including me) think that’s what she did with Taravangian. I also theorize she did that with Renarin as well by intentionally letting Glys be “enlightened” by Sja-anat, though there is no conclusive proof to back it up.
edit: I would also say it was dangerous for Cultivation, because she could have exposed her meddling enough to Odium that he would focus on taking her out directly, rather than assuming she has been cowed and doesn’t care about humanity since Tanavast’s death. There is a WoB to support that, the portion about everyone assuming Cultivation doesn’t care anymore and won’t get involved.
@50 – Concerning your “slight” possibility about the Sibling being a Dysian Aimian-esque being:
@62 – I agree with your edited part rather than your first paragraph.
@62 scath
If Cultivation didn’t help Dalinar he would be dead most likely. Poison himself with alcohol to death. And Odium would pick another Champion afterwards. Or Dalinar could lost his mind completely, turn to Odium for help and recovery and became a Champion. I want to say, trying to help Dalinar is the best possible solution, the only chance for him not to end up being 1)dead 2)Champion of Odium. But according to Cultivation, helping him is very very dangerous…maybe your second assumption is right and she just didn’t want to let herself be found. Because, as I see it, it is better to try to help Dalinar rather than leaving him alone with his madness.
Hatred becomes an all consuming emotion. It can eat everything, transforming a multifaceted emotional being into a singular force bent towards destruction (self-aggrandizement or revenge) and jealousy (sole ownership). The two circle each other down into drain of empty isolation if left unchecked.
Odium offering to take the emotions of others is a perfect representation of his desire to diminish and consume everyone. The natural end state of hatred. I get the impression Rayse felt like humanity shouldn’t play second fiddle to Adonalsium, he hated god because he wanted to be god. So he picks the shard that best fit his desire.
An interesting concept of the divine, what does it mean to hold an emotion perfectly? Context, balance, careful application. Exploring the full attributes (power/ability) and character (emotion/cognition combining into personality) of divinity held by limited created beings is a fun little experiment.
@64 Austin
Lol, meanwhile I lean towards the first part of that post rather than the edited, but I will leave my further discussion of that when the chapter in question comes up.
@65 lordruler
I think I will leave further comments on the subject till the chapter where Cultivation actually says those words, but suffice it to say I personally think Dalinar was capable of becoming the man he did without Cultivation’s interference. But I will elaborate on that aspect when the chapter comes up.
@67 scath
“I personally think Dalinar was capable of becoming the man he did without Cultivation’s interference.”
I agree.
After reading all about what who and how odium, might try to rid Roshar of cultivation and honor.. ect. It got me thinking oh Dalinar at the end of book claiming “I am unity”. Is it possible that he will try to unite honor,cultivation and odium?
i love reading everyone’s theories and explanations offered always helps too.
@69 Windspren
So regarding “I am Unity”, there are a number of theories, among them the main ones are that Dalinar will reform the shard Honor and Ascend as the new Vessel, the theory you mentioned where Dalinar will unite all three shards (Honor, Cultivation, and Odium), or the theory that Dalinar will ultimately bring together all the shards, reforming Adonalsium. Personally I lean towards just Honor, but all the theories have decent evidence and thought to back them up, so it looks like right now it is a Read and Find Out! lol
Agreeing with @Scáth. Another theory I’ve run into is that Honor broke into “smaller concepts” when Splintered, one of which is Unity, meaning that he picked up a big piece of Honor but not all or even most of the Shard.
What if Unity was the real name of Honors shard. In the sense that Passion is what Odium is.
@72 smaugthemagnificent
Questioner
In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?
Brandon
I have kind of imagines this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously odium thinks that he’s named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen knew. Like, “i am missing this part of me, it is this”. and it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. and various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent
Billy Todd
follow up question there. would the entity that we call odium refer to itself as odium when it’s honest with itself?
brandon
ehhhh, i don’t think odium is capable of being honest with himself. there are times where odium has called himself odium. that is more out of convenience and the fact that everyoen calls you by a name. but odium is determined to change that perception
billy todd
so does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as passion?
brandon
yes, part of him does
bill todd
has he always ever been odium since the shattering?
brandon
yes
so Odium wants to change the perception of himself to be passion, but he was always odium. I think Unity is how Dalinar interprets the shard honor, like how Sazed could have been Discord instead of Harmony. At least that is my thoughts on the matter
@73 Scath
Thanks! that it most helpful.
@74 smaugthemagnificent
No problem, glad to help! Looks like Odium is going for the “winning their hearts and minds” approach this time around lol
On the question of if a different Vessel would make a difference on Odium’s actions, I doubt it. Somewhere in a previous book’s epigraphs, there’s a statement to the effect of “Ati (Ruin) was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what he became.” So while a better person picking up the shard of Odium may have changed some things, I think ultimately it wouldn’t have much impact. I get the impression that after a while the Intent of the Shard basically takes over the Vessel.
Would anyone better have wanted to pick up the Shard of Odium, if Rayse hadn’t?
@76 Iskohn
Well considering Ati picked up Ruin because he hopes he could hold back its “worser” aspects, then I would imagine other Vessels could have potentially voluntarily “sacrificed” themselves thinking they were controlling the shard to prevent it from doing greater harm if Rayse didn’t trick them into letting him have it. Not saying they would be successful considering what happened to Ati, but I think there is precedent for the people at the shattering picking up a shard to try and hold back its “negative” side.
I am worried Odium is being truthful when he says:
“Separate the emotion from men, and you have creatures like Nale and his Skybreakers. That is what Honor would have given you.”
Just like intents gradually overwhelm a shardholder, I am concerned Spren bonds do the same to their knights. Their emotion was literally separated from them by the Spren bond.
Not only do we see the catastrophic emotional effects on Nale and his Skybreakers after centuries of a Spren bonds, in the next chapter we see firsthand the physical effects of a Soulcatcher. I don’t think the bond is limited to higher function to the Spren and power for the human. I think there is a deeper connection in a Cognitive or Spiritual sense. This may be a natural consequence of the bond or a side effect of Ishar’s safeguards. As the bond deepens, by definition I think the knight’s soul starts to echo the intent or cognitive essence of their spren, making them less flexible and possibly less human. I think that may have contributed to the Recreance.
Another possibility is what happens when a knight dies? From Secret History we know that infusions of investiture can let Cognitive shadows stick around. Do we know for sure that a Spren bond ends on death? With all this talk of the Tranquiline Halls and Damnation, could knights be trapped in one place or the other, denyed their natural death? Could after death effects have contributed to the Recreance?
Like many others, I don’t think we have the full story yet.
lordruler @5, and others – One of the things I tend to do in the reread is to tease out connections to the greater Cosmere, as well as connections we might not have noticed on a first read within the book itself. And… sometimes I get into it too much! Always, always feel free to skip over that stuff, or just don’t bother with it. Each series is meant to be sufficient to itself for reading enjoyment, and the inter-series connections – as well as the plethora of WoB information – shouldn’t be critical to either enjoyment or understanding. At the same time, there are those of us that love putting the puzzles together, so Sanderson keeps giving us small bits to work with. I’ll keep digging into Cosmere information, but no one should ever feel like they need that part.
LazerWulf @54 – I’ve been mostly offline; my apologies for not responding to this sooner. You said, “From a different WoB we know that Cusicesh is not 3rd Sib, but do you have the WoB where it states 3rd Sib is not related to Odium? If this is another false equivalency, we need to spread the word so that fallacy doesn’t spread.” Unfortunately, there does not currently exist a verbatim transcription of the exact phrasing, but the gist of it is summarized here:
Unless you convince yourself that the Unmade are the broken-apart Sibling, which doesn’t seem to fit what we know of the Sibling, then Sibling clearly doesn’t have a relationship to Odium like the ones between Honor/Stormfather and Cultivation/Nightwatcher. It’s one of those conclusions that everyone wants to jump to, because THREE! but it’s not supported by what Brandon has specifically said. We can spread this all we want, but there will always be a new reader coming along and making that assumption. At least, there will be until we learn more about the Sibling… which I devoutly hope will be in book four.
#78, @Brendan_Morgan:
Nale was driven insane by Odium’s servants on Braize. Blaming Honor for that is probably not completely accurate. It’s worth mentioning that there is a WoB that Odium is self-delusional–of course he blames everything bad on others. The other Skybreakers by and large are not nearly as dysfunctional as Nale himself, as we will see in the Szeth PoV sections. Like almost everyone on Roshar except main characters (Jasnah, Taravangian, Mraize) they just give Heralds too much deference.
There is no reason to think any Skybreaker but Nale has longer-than-normal lifespan. If he had been recruiting for centuries and none had died, there would be way more of them.
At least in some cases, yes. Sylphrena is a surviving pre-Recreance truespren, and when her knight died, the bond broke and he went Beyond. For that matter, the Stormfather (her father) is also a surviving Radiant spren whose former knights have gone Beyond, and so is the Nightwatcher.
Brandon doesn’t enforce absolute unanimity in his worlds, so it’s certainly possible that some knights did remain as Cognitive Shadows, but it wouldn’t be just because they were Knights Radiant.
@78 Brendan Morgan
That is an interesting possibility. That the ideals of the spren bond overwhelm the bondee.
We do not know for sure that the bond ends with death, thought Syl is a potential confirmation that it does end at death as she had bonded a knight in the past, and he died naturally, before the Recreance. She was hurt when he died, which caused her to go to sleep, but it is not the same as when a knight breaks his or her oaths. So I lean towards natural death of a radiant does sever the bond. Now whether that results in them being sent to Braize, or what have you, the jury is still out.
@80 Carl
Ah, I go one comment at a time, looks like you ninjaed me about Syl. Great minds think alike!
@5
For people who aren’t die hard “Cosmere” fans it can be hard to follow some plots.
Know that you aren’t alone in this. My comments have fallen in proportion to the Cosmere interconnections and speculation thereon. It’s a fan-fiction feature for sure, and a path I lack the energy to follow unlike many others here. Thankfully the stories are excellent!